hi everyone
i am BRAND new to this Muscle Car world. Mostly i've tinkered/built some motorcycles and am looking to get into something that gives me the fun of riding but that I can share with my wife and daughter as she grows up. Yeah i know it sounds a bit of an oxymoron - a muscle car for a family - but i that's my logic anyway!

so i have a line on 2 possible options:
1 - a 70 4 door nova that is currently running and nearly all original inc the driveline. automatic 3 spd on the column. new brakes. needs floor pans installled - which he has and i can weld so not terribly worried. will most likely need additional body work before paint. but the beauty is it is running now. can get it for 1000.

2 - 68 2 door with a lot of sheetmetal susoension parts, bushings, rear quarters and trunk and gas tank are new. it is a 3sp manual on the column and i really wanted a std shift. supposedly it ran when they started the work and the car is in primer now and ready for pre-paint body work. needs rims but i have some anyway off an older camaro. wont be driveable right away but is more valuable but cost is at 1600.

i am going to see the 68 tomorrow. what are the major points to look for? eventually i'll drop a new sbc into it anyway. main priority is being able to SAFELY put the family in it. can a person fit in the rear of a 2 door? the ONLY 2 reasons i am considering the 4 door are 1 it is driveable now and 2 it will be easier to put the fam in it. but for the extra 600 it may be worth getting the 68- esp if the body work has been done well. considering both will need an engine at some point. i do have a 68 buick 350 in the garage.

thank you for any help and advice - i am really hoping one of these works out. there are other options as well inc 72/73 and 78 versions in similar price ranges.

Welcome to the Team Jason!

The 68 with a three in the tree is a standard transmission. The automatic was an option back in 1968, the base or "standard transmission" was a three speed Saginaw. The 1968 will be of greater value as a two door is more popular.

A four door will make great transportation if you need a daily driver. Unlike the Camaro you can squeeze an adult in the back seat of a two door Nova (the Camaro back seat is only good for the dog, groceries or small kids).

Big Dave

thanks Big Dave
yeah i've wanted a std shift for a while now. the 68 is local to me whereas the 70 is about 2.5 hours away and i am not smart enough to check it out and LEAVE it if it is junk. knowing i'd be driving back and forth a bunch to get the deal done - but i may be able to get it cheaper still because of that if i plaid the cards right.

i am leaning towards the 68 - esp when you say i can fit someone in the back. right now that someone is only 10 months so she prob wouldnt be going in it at any time soon (wife would be less than happy!) but eventually she'll be ridin with me!

thanbk you for your help! by the way - it may be sacrilege BUT if i wanted to could i drop the 68 buick 350 in there? only asking cos i have it. though i would assume i couldnt use the th400 auto trans with the 68 if it is a std? but thats the least of my worries right now.

i am leaning towards the 68 - esp when you say i can fit someone in the back. right now that someone is only 10 months so she prob wouldnt be going in it at any time soon (wife would be less than happy!) but eventually she'll be ridin with me!

Don't give up that easy... Used to have a 71 with a bench seat, and the baby seat fit great right in the middle of the front seat (facing rearwards) when we went out for ice cream.

thanbk you for your help! by the way - it may be sacrilege BUT if i wanted to could i drop the 68 buick 350 in there? only asking cos i have it. though i would assume i couldnt use the th400 auto trans with the 68 if it is a std? but thats the least of my worries right now.

A few thoughts...

- There are likely to be a bunch of cars for sale (given the economy) so don't limit yourself to just those two

- A 4 door is going to have a lower value than a 2, but...especially if you're just getting into this...having it ready to drive is a big plus to start with.

- The buick will fit, but: you'll need to get a different bellhousing or transmission with the BOP (buick-olds-pontiac) bellhousing bolt pattern, you'll need the engine mounts out of a similar vintage Buick Apollo, and you'll have to figure out something for the exhaust. After all that...it's probably waaay simpler and cheaper to just pick up a chevy V8 and install that instead. (Not saying it can't be done relatively easily, just...easier for a beginner to skip the cross-breeding headaches)

thanks again
part of it is that i cant drop 3-5k now so i def need it to be a project. the 4 door is running but he just told me that it also may have a fuel filter issue (easy enough) and needs the floor panels redone but he has them. basically each car has its positives and negatives. i am def liking a std shift idea as well as the 2 door look and poss better resale. short term the 4 door may be a better option, long term perhaps the 68? the guy with the 68 said he was running it and didnt touch the drivetrain when they started doing all the body work.

Buick 350 is a little bigger a few pounds heavier than a Small Block Chevy, but not by much. The Buick 455 would be a great addition as it is the same size on the outside and looks just like the Buick 350, but is a lot bigger on the inside. You will need to change the transmission as Chevys have their very own transmission bolt pattern different from the rest of GM cars (BOP stands for Buick Olds Pontiac but it includes Cadillac as well.). Small block Chevy V-8s are common and cheap, probably about the same cost as a BOP tranny. If you read this board long enough you will hear me mentioning the virtues of the Buick 455 (not much bigger on the outside than a SBC but has the torque needed to move a 5000 pound luxury car). I find that idea attractive, especially with 350 decals.

Big Dave

Jason, what engine is in the 70 4 door..??? A running, driving car for a starter vehicle is always a good idea. Best thing is you can start using it immediately....the floors can always be fixed at a later date, unless they are completely gone. If you are unsure what choice to make get someone you trust to go with you and look them both over. The 68 sounds cheap given the amount of new parts and sheet metal you listed. Overall integrity of each car has to be looked at....how much money and time to get either one done....what other parts are needed to finish the 68. I have done a few restos and the little stuff can really add up ($$$)...if that 70 is running and mechanically sound/safe it might be the best value....post some pics if you can and any other details. Good luck..

wilma

Welcome to team nova!!!!!!!!!!

make sure the subframe on either car is not pulling out of the floor. any car that has spent 35+ years in the northeast is going to have issues, unless of course it was garaged/not driven in winters. I remember metric malibu rear bumpers coming down to the ground in a shower of rust flakes twenty years ago, while i was living in Framingham.

Look for signs of rust, but also consider the condition of the interior. You can spend a heck of a lot of money getting it to a comfortable level. If the seats are bad, or the seat belts missing, then you will be out time and cash trying to repair it.

If you are putting the family in it, you want the interior to be at least passable.

Also, some people seem to have a hard time finding interior parts for the '68.

I drive a 4 door, and everyone fits nicely. :thumbsup:

thanks everyone
well the guy with the 4 door hasnt called me back so i think that one is out. i did get a line on a 70 buick skylark that has a 455 olds rocket in it though i need more info regardin rust, parts, etc. he is asking 1750 or best offer and sounds like he'd go down a fair amount on that price. but i need to see if he has the glass, missing front lights, etc. i think the skylark parts may be more costly than the chevy? so that is something i need to consider. i dont know the history/condition of either car's engine so that is sort of a wash. both guys said they ran before the work was started but you never know. i saw a 455 olds rocket online for 350 so its not like the engine is a huge money item. but this one looks like it may require more parts than the chevy.

my bud is recommending the nova

heres a link to a page i made with the info/pics on both cars:
http://www.cyclehaul.com/cars/cars.html


here are some pics of both:

i wonder if the kid who owns that Buick even knows what a Olds/Rocket engine is... i say kid because someone stole his keys while at school ?

Buick made a 455 engine and i find it more likely that it's a Buick in the Buick instead of an Olds engine... as filtly dirty as it looks i'd say that's what's in there. but i can't confirm from the pics... the exhaust pipes look like a hack job, i wonder what else is hacked...

either way...



i'd save my money and keep looking.

thanks Shifty - may i ask why you think both are not viable options to consider? Not being sarcastic - truthfully asking. Like most rookies, I can't afford to put out 5k to start with (fully realizing that most likely i will end up spending more to retro-build a car than i would if i just bought one done) but the general plan is to find a solid frame/decent body car that i can swap the drivetrain in over next winter, and drive while i work on the cosmetics/interior. i am sure you've all heard the same scenario a billion times already!! My thoughts are that i can try to hold out for something running, etc for same cost or maybe a bit more - even though i'd prob replace the driveline anyway - or try to find a fair priced shell to begin with that is as complete as i can find.

i am def interested to see what it is that makes these not good candidates as that will help me learn what to seek out.

thank you
- jason

sorry forgot to day - i am looking at about $1200 for either if that makes a difference

well... the '68 is a rarer car than any other 3rd genner due to it's "one year only" status on a lot of parts that are now a days hard to find and expensive but that'd not "really" be my determining factor... what i don't like is the fact (now remember, i'm not looking at the car, only pics & description) that the floor and quarters were replaced, WHY ? well because of rust of course... and the person states there's dash board work to be done. bad piece already cut out and new piece ready to weld in.

that tells me it's a rusty POS and i don't want it...

quote from ad...

68 chevy nova project. Straight six motor, Three speed on the column. Front end has been replaced, new rear quarter panels, new trunk and gas tank. it is stripped out but i have everything that goes with it. the car is primed but has some surface rust due to lack of garage. i have replacement dashboard cut just need to be welded in place. not much more needed before complete


primered but rusty due to no garage... ok, cheap paint but i'll wager the underside and around windows is a rust haven...

no, i'll pass thanks...


the Buick ?

if it's as 95% as complete as the ad says then why doesn't he finish it and double/triple/quadruple their money ? i don't believe for a dirty filthy engine as posted that it's an Olds engine... why would anyone install such a filthy engine without at least spending, what, maybe ten bucks on cleaning/painting supplies and clean/paint engine and engine compartment ? no, i'd say it's a Buick engine and the guy doesn't even know what he has... plus the fact the exhaust looks so hacked up... what, ten minutes with a cutoff wheel or even a sawsall and the pipes could be cut back and be made to look better...

i'd be looking for a much better candidate to start with. the amount of money that you'd need for either of those cars will be gone in a flash and you'd still have something so unsightly that yer sweetie & kids wouldn't want to ride in.

i'd look for a better car, don't rush... keep yer cash and don't be in a hurry to part with it. as someone said recently... it's a buyer's market right now so just bide your time ;)


JR

yeah those points def make sense
i think i have ruled out the buick regardless - i need parts availability for this as it is my first one. i also think the same way as you - if something "only needs a little work to complete" then why not complete it? i understand cash for a toy project is not always #1 priority. and sometimes the work is either beyond one's expertise or budget or both. sometimes life happens and just need to move on.

my questions about the 68 is these:
if i wait to find a solid car with good sheetmetal all around, etc is that better than having all crappy sheetmetal already replaced if done well and done with quality parts? i guess that is obv but really what are the odds of finding a good body/frame/etc car in a 1-2k price range. in other words, we are talking about 40 year old metal that for the budget i have, has most likely been outside/in the elements for some time or i get lucky and find a barn find for cheap. so i guess i was sort of assuming that any project in this range would need some bodywork - of course hoping to find minimal amount needed. so if someone else did have a rusty POS as this probably is/was - if they have already done the nec work to get the sheetmetal back up to par, doesnt that make the purchase a bit more plausible? i hope that makes sense and by no means am i trying to say i am buing this car.

i use the following analogy:
i flew from san diego to boston round trip for 218.00 on southwest. last seat, next to the can, no recline, guy in front of me reclined all the way so i couldnt put my snack tray down. it sucked - but i couldnt complain cos i paid 218 to fly 7000 miles!
so if i want a perfect flight with nice food and lots of legroom, i pay much more than 218 these days. with a project car i only have so much up front and dont expect a showcar for dimes on the dollar.

i hope this makes sense. have a lot of you found very solid novas in the 1-2k range that were in quality condition? i am very new to this so i truly appreciate the help.

most important things you can do...

wait. save your money and do exactly what you're doing... researching and asking questions.

what's the time frame on building etc the car you intend on getting ? how much money do you expect to have invested in the car when it's done ?

don't expect a 40-45 year old car to be brand new. you buy this car and drive it and you'll find it nickles & dimes ya ta death... whatever you end up getting will more than likely need brakes, suspension, maybe engine & drivetrain work JUST to drive it. that has nothing to do with the "look & feel" so to speak of paint/body & interior.

so, back to the question of, when you get the car how long do you expect to take until you can drive it ? and how much money do you think you'll have invested in that "driver" ?

as an example i bought my '64 for $300.00 seven/eight years ago and it took all of that time to get it done. not saying what i have invested but it's a bit.
http://rides.webshots.com/album/176304791tTQzmj

whatever you get, if it's a long term project then compare to a new car... you walk into a dealership/used car lot and sign papers on say a $15,000.00 car. after 5 years of paying for it what do you actually have invested with interest etc ? a lot more than the 15K and it's not worth what ya paid for it.

so, if you take the cash you have and buy that '68... OK, so buy it... but consider it a 5 year investment and pay into that car the 15K you'd put down or sign into at that car dealership... after 5 years that 15K car would be worth more than the 15K providing the work is quality etc.

don't expect to buy today and drive today... you'll end up like the people who's ads you're reading... "Lost Interest, Must Sell" think and plan real hard and make a plan then commit to it ;)

completely makes sense
i got into bikes about 10 years ago 9and 35 now) and had ZERO - i mean literally ZERO - mechanical experience. one day my bike was idling wayyyy too high so went to the dealer and he told me 180 to adjust a choke cable (on a sportbike and i had unscrewed the damn thing all the way so it was wide-open0. i laughed and went home and got some basic tools and fixed it. obv simple enougj but i really enjoyed it.

about 5 years ago i couldnt take wearing a suit anymore so i quit the job (with families cooperation) and got certified in working on harleys. got back and "built" a custom with all dealer parts for 12k (was top of chopper craze then). sold that. built a sporty bobber for 6500 sold that. now just finishing up my favorite one so far - another sporty bobber with all of 2100 into it. plus a couple cheapie yamaha 650's.

i say this because i have always been too dumb to know better and too naive to think i cant do things. the first 2 bikes took a long time for me. the rest have come about fairlyquick as i know the parts, values etc. swap meets, bartering, ebay, making things work that dont normally go together - i can do that with bikes but not cars.

with the cars i just dont have that knowledge. i know i will be using catalogs for certain items and dropping a crate engine in at some point. i am not patient or skilled enough with major body work which is why i was intrigued by this one that has a lot of it re-done. i am sure you are right - i bet it was a rusty POS. i also think it is good that theowner wanted to redo the dash area as he probably could have half assed it and covered it up?

arghh i get these thoughts in my head and cant escape them!!

and i def dont expect it to be done tomorrow. but i cant get into something that will cost 25k just for a summer driver. my simple plan was to focus on getting it running as-is with the inline 6. finishing the interior. then work on outside. then driveline swap.
of course that is extremely elementary plan and any number of a billion things could change that!

i say this because i have always been too dumb to know better and too naive to think i cant do things. the first 2 bikes took a long time for me. the rest have come about fairly quick as i know the parts, values etc. swap meets, bartering, ebay, making things work that dont normally go together - i can do that with bikes but not cars.



yeah but you seem to be going about it right as far as the Bikes go... so apply all that to cars and you'll probably get the same results ;)

i think you'll do OK... just don't be in a rush ;)

thanks for all the help

i'll take a look at it next week and post some pics and let you all help me decide

GOODY !!! we're all GREAT at spending someone else's money :D

well the guy with the 4 door just replied finally

heres a couple pics of this one - all i got unfortunately - but can prob get for 1k. 6 cyl auto mostly original. not sure about sheetmetal condition.

Have you considered buying a 75 - 79 Nova? I paid $600 for mine and it has a rust free, dent free, bondo free body. I have purchased several running 4 door cars for under $200 and all were rust free as well. I have seen nice, running 2 door V8 4th gen Novas here selling for under $2k.

yeah i'm just not as big a fan of the later ones as the early ones but i am open to wahetever. actually just got a line on a 73 w/ the stock 350 and auto trans, etc etc can prob get for 600 to 700. will need brakes and def some sheetmetal work, paint, etc. i am sort of assuming that i will no doubt have to do some nbody work, engine repair/swap, brakes etc. interesting how each generation of cars has positives and negatives - early ones had better engines but at this point theyd be 40 years old anything in my b udget is probably toast. later ones less power but have disc brakes. its like you can get lucky with one part but the others make up for it!!

do you have any pics of later models after restoration?

I can find you some photos and post them. It has surprised many people how good the 4th gen can look with the right paint, wheels and stance.
For me it was the initial cost and the front steering and suspension that got me interested. Hopefully mine will be on the road in a couple of months, but paint will be much later.

Here are a few nice examples of the possibilities the 4th gen offer. These cars have had some serious cash dumped into them, but the same money will need to be spent on any year Nova to make it nice.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c46/ProNova/OceanCityFall2007003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/novaboy009/nova2-1.jpg

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii3/DiscoNova1977/l_ec2354dce49f2324e1886f5207625541.jpg

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii3/DiscoNova1977/MeVsRyan.jpg

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t183/skynyrd71/Scan9_0009_009.jpg

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn144/1975NOVASS/NovaSSJan2008015.jpg

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh203/mikeorwan/Scan11182008_161329.jpg

wow - those are sharp! personally they dont have the same appeal as the late 60/early 70's do but those are good looking int heir own right. i guess more options just opened up!! hopefully looking at the 68 and a 73 tomorrow. guy is only asking 900 or b/o for 73 so we'll see the conditon. it has the stock 350 which may be underpowered but i am assuming that since it already has a 350, i could drop a new 350 in it easier than dropping it into an original inline 6 car?

i am assuming that since it already has a 350, i could drop a new 350 in it easier than dropping it into an original inline 6 car?

Yes it would be much easier. You have all the correct mounts and brackets. The stock 350 may surprise you. The horsepower numbers appeared lower because the rating went from gross to net, ther was only a slight drop due to the lower compression.

well going to look at the 73 today. actually it is a 74 but registered as a 73 for some reason? anyway it starts, has front discs with new internals for the rear drums, complete interior (though seats need some love but i can exchange web work for the upholstery work), has the stock 350 in it, auto tranny (eventually want to put in a manual), will need some body work and paint obv. i will take pics and post. asking 900 will see how it is and poss offer 600 or 700.

well i went and looked at it and sadly it is just too far gone. would need all new sheetmetal on both rear quarters, both rear inner wheel whells, both front fender, ironically the rockers were really good?, the interior was in good shape, and the motor sputtered. really was hoping it was a sleeper, but just too much time and money needed for me to go for it.

will go look at athe 68 today or tomorrow. i was talking with my bud who said his opinion is that it will always be cheaper to find a car that has a good body - or has had the body re-done well but that needs a motor versus a car with a good motor but has major body issues. i agree. the guy with the 68 is asking 1600 so we'll see. it tech has an engine - the stock I6 - so who knows.

i am wondering if i should just focus on the 53 dodge rat pickup i started some time ago. my thought process was that whatever i investin the dodge will most likely not be recouped. if i did that with a nova, etc i am prob better off. agh i am all over the place.

well went and looked at the 68 today

pics here:
http://www.kodakgallery.com/ShareLanding.action?c=cp1wtlp.bnk376wx&x=0&y=txyic6&localeid=en_US (http://www.kodakgallery.com/ShareLanding.action?c=cp1wtlp.bnk376wx&x=0&y=txyic6&localeid=en_US)

the rust is mostly surface rust though obv there are someas that need finish weldeing/patches.

has some positives and negatives - as any car in this price range would i guess

outside sheetmetal is pretty good. saw pics of the work done and all was looking good till it\\the car sat outside for 2 years since the work was done. lotsa surface rust but nothing looking to severe.

i'd replace all 4 inner wheel wells. all 4 rims are crap and needs new tires though if they are 5 x 4 1/2 bolt pattern i have a set that i can just toss on (brand new tires but they are 15 inchers?)

trunk was replaced but welded VERY poorly but i can fix that with my handy MIG welder.

engine "was" running but truthfully i'd swap a V8 in there anyway. i like that it is a factory standard but i'd convert it to floor shift.

the interior needs some patchng but the floor pans, trunk floor, are good and solid. doors open and shut nice. windhsield needs to be installed and all new weatherstripping installed. will need a new master cy (would prob end up dping a front disc swap w/ boosted m/c) new brake line and prob new lines all the way around. needs bucket seats - the stock ones are toast. needs carpet etc. but all the interior stuff is good - good door panels, dash has no cracks or anything, glove box is toast, little windows on the doors open and shut, the rockers are solid. new bushings and springs in the front.

he is asking 1500. what do you think? and without inc paint what do you guess is a ball park number that i would need to invest to get it roadworthy? i know that is completely subjective - but i cant nickel and dime my account to zero!

i am looking for a summer driver that is safe and fun- no drag racing, no show car, just clean and i'll get a decent paint job when i can. not lookig to build to sell - want to enjoy it for as long as i can.

i also have a line on a 72 le mans that is in better shape that i can trade the bike i just built straight-up for.

Jason, sent you a message..

wilma