Well here is a problem I have been stewing over for a while. The car when done, some freaking day when ever the hell that will be:(, will be about a 95% street driven with a few jaunts to the track yearly. Anyway I was wondering should a person just run what I have, the 041 heads which could be argued are fairly decent factory heads (hey!!!!! anything can be argued....just ask my wife :D), should I invest in vortecs, or would something else be a better choice? Remember that this car will largely be street driven so I would rather sacrifice some all out 1/4 mile performance for an impressive midrange punch. (if ya know what I mean)

Anyway guys what do you think? BTW not sure if this will effect your opinion but the car will be fairly high compression when done...well over 11:1 when all is said and done..so I guess that should be taken into account.

thanks in advance:)

You know my vote will be for the Vortecs :) You'll have to run race gas with 11:1, no matter how good the quench is. FWIW, my next combo will be 11:1.

You know my vote will be for the Vortecs :) You'll have to run race gas with 11:1, no matter how good the quench is. FWIW, my next combo will be 11:1.

cool...what specs are ya thinking of running??? Hopefully your not like that guy from the "other" nova site with the same name cause he must think he is a doube knot secret agent and that everything is secret squirrel stuff:rolleyes: :D :)

But seriously have you heard how well the vortecs like compression?

cool...what specs are ya thinking of running??? Hopefully your not like that guy from the "other" nova site with the same name cause he must think he is a doube knot secret agent and that everything is secret squirrel stuff:rolleyes: :D :)

But seriously have you heard how well the vortecs like compression?

Oh, that's my cousin yer thinking of...he's a little strange. There's nothing magical about the Vortecs. They'll react to compression just like any other iron head. I'm not sure what fuel I'll have to run yet though. I doubt I'll be able to run Sunoco 100, so it will probably be one of the VP fuels.

Oh, that's my cousin yer thinking of...he's a little strange. There's nothing magical about the Vortecs. They'll react to compression just like any other iron head. I'm not sure what fuel I'll have to run yet though. I doubt I'll be able to run Sunoco 100, so it will probably be one of the VP fuels.

well I havent tried it or anything but I have read a few buildups with the vortecs/and other heads in the mags where they had an actual cr of 10.5:1cr and better and they were still good with 92 so I would think the sunoco 100 should be good to go...BUT hey there seems to be no easy way to know what gas will run what CR without doing some trial and error testing first...what runs in one car might ping like hell in another...

well I havent tried it or anything but I have read a few buildups with the vortecs/and other heads in the mags where they had an actual cr of 10.5:1cr and better and they were still good with 92 so I would think the sunoco 100 should be good to go...BUT hey there seems to be no easy way to know what gas will run what CR without doing some trial and error testing first...what runs in one car might ping like hell in another...

Exactly. You may be able to run pump gas if you pull some timing out of it, but I'm just speculating.

Exactly. You may be able to run pump gas if you pull some timing out of it, but I'm just speculating.

arent we all:) I just wish there was some way to figure out what octain a specific combo will require without having to build it first and then figuring it out....crap by the time you know exactly what it needs its really too late to change things (due to cost) if the motor will only run on 5 buck a gallon racing fuel...:eek:...that will limit your cruising time somewhat:rolleyes: :)

I run a 11.1 Engine on 93.Gotta watch the Tuning.Not saying you should do it.
Joe

I skipped the Original Question.Shortly I am doing a 406.I am Using 041 Heads on it.Mainly because I have them.
Joe

I run a 11.1 Engine on 93.Gotta watch the Tuning.Not saying you should do it.
Joe

Kewl Joe...thats with a BB right? BTW whats your piston or bore clearance and your deck height :D (j/k man;))

Did you say what size motor these are going on? 11:1 is pretty steep for iron heads on pump gas.:)

Did you say what size motor these are going on? 11:1 is pretty steep for iron heads on pump gas.:)

well at the moment its a 355 but that is subject to change(like most things in life) Ya she may have a problem or two with pump gas...or at least easy to get pump gas...I bet the stuff from sunoco(100 octain) would run it fine....(of course there isnt a sunoco nearby that sells it:()

What Pistons is are the 355?

What Pistons is are the 355?

Currently???

Nothing as its disassembled:D

In the future some forged slugs with a tiny little bump on them:rolleyes: ;)

If you are afraid of the Comp,Cut the Bump of.

If you are afraid of the Comp,Cut the Bump of.

well not really afraid per say just hoping like hell when its all said and done I dont need 5 buck a gallon fuel to run the thing.....I'm not too worried however...I still have to CC some parts so I will know the real compression and go from there...if the CR is a little high with my current heads (64cc chambers) I can always get a set with bigger chambers...time will tell untill then its all good...oh ya...BTW your right I can always have the dome milled down a bit to sort out the CR if it ends up a little to high for my pocket book:)

If they are solid Dome Pistons.

You could also Bleed off some of that Comp.

If they are solid Dome Pistons.

Ya they are solid that part is cool...

You could also Bleed off some of that Comp.

ya a later closing intake valve would help lower the cylinder pressure so thats a good option too...Hopefully when its all together I will be close enough with the cam that I can just advance the cam (I believe that the direction) if I need to lower the cylinder pressure a bit and not have to buy a new cam...but even that is cheaper than running race gas all the time...:)

IMO, if yer gonna have a 90% street car, I'd make darn sure it would run a 92-94 octane at the most.

My $.02

I agree with you Dave.I will also say My 11.1 Engine is on the edge.It dont like Bad Gas.

It will however stay,11.1.Lets get this up to 50 Pages.Is Paul here?

IMO, if yer gonna have a 90% street car, I'd make darn sure it would run a 92-94 octane at the most.

My $.02

I agree fully with that and in reality 92-94 is my goal...the sunoco 100 is a very distant option...and racing fuel is not an option...

BUT I'm going to run as high as I possibly can and still use pump...if its on the edge so be it...the forged are tough enough to take it once in a while...one way or another this puppy will do what I want it to do and be what I want it to be even if it takes a head change and 3 cam changes to get there:)

It will however stay,11.1.Lets get this up to 50 Pages.Is Paul here?

Shheeeettt we dont need Paul to hit 50 pages...heck the "And" thread went well over 1000 posts and I dont think he posted once in it:D

69,
My 402 has Forgrd Pistons,that doesnt bother Me.Detonation will Hammer on the Bottom end also.You will be allright though,just watch the Tuning.

OOps where is Dave,I need Spell Check.No,not wfo dave.

OOps where is Dave,I need Spell Check.No,not wfo dave.

Huh? Im nto a good sepller.

69,
My 402 has Forgrd Pistons,that doesnt bother Me.Detonation will Hammer on the Bottom end also.You will be allright though,just watch the Tuning.

Oh ya it will squash the oil out from between the bearing insert and the journal....not a good thing....Hey life is too damn short and we may as well enjoy it...I tell my wife this will be the last motor I will build.....what I dont tell her is the "until the next time part":D...there will always be motors to build....its just too much fun not too;)

Besides I have some time to make up for as there was years I didnt even look at a motor...so I have to make up for lost time:)

69,
In 95 I sold the Last Hot Rods and Parts I had.Said I was done,didnt want anymore.Things Change.

Back to the original question. I would think that if you needed work on the 041's it would be better just to invest the money in some Vortec style heads. If the 041's are all set to go then you could run them until you upgrade.:)

Back to the original question. I would think that if you needed work on the 041's it would be better just to invest the money in some Vortec style heads. If the 041's are all set to go then you could run them until you upgrade.:)

I had the 041's gone over in 1991 (new valves, guilds, 3 angle valve job, etc) and they have less then 3000miles on them...they should have a lot of years of service in them...that is where I get wishy washy...they will work and work well and I dont need to spend a dime on them..well maybe new springs and guide seals...but eveything else will cost money...money that could be spent else where and then down the road as you said upgrade the heads

I would use those Heads.

I would use those Heads.

Ya I'm really inclined to do that...it really just seems like the logical thing to do...:)

I had the 041's gone over in 1991 (new valves, guilds, 3 angle valve job, etc) and they have less then 3000miles on them...they should have a lot of years of service in them...that is where I get wishy washy...they will work and work well and I dont need to spend a dime on them..well maybe new springs and guide seals...but eveything else will cost money...money that could be spent else where and then down the road as you said upgrade the heads

Hardened seats also? You know my car ran 12.78 with those bone stock 041X's. I was pretty happy with them. Just got to get to the 11's and I think different heads were needed for that. I also get bored if I'm not working on something.:thumbsup:

Hardened seats also? You know my car ran 12.78 with those bone stock 041X's. I was pretty happy with them. Just got to get to the 11's and I think different heads were needed for that. I also get bored if I'm not working on something.:thumbsup:

Ya hardened seat too....they really are ready to use except like I said I would redo the valve guide seals and the springs...

I'm like you in that I like to be working on something and fortunately I have another project lined up as soon as this one ends...so I'll be busy for a while :thumbsup:

Use the Heads,or Send them to Me.Your Choice.Projects,Whats that?

Projects,Whats that?

a project is something that gets me outta the house and away from the TV and into the garage...:D.:)

69,are you Paul?
I have a Few of them,wanna Help.

no...I'm Duane....I use the same user name at Steves too:)

which BTW appears to be back online;)

Now I remember your Duana,The other Canadian I know is Paul/Taz.

Now I remember your Duana,The other Canadian I know is Paul/Taz.

Yep..I know him too...he is actually from a place about 2 hours from where I'm from back there in Ontario...He has a '69 with a BB if I'm not mistaken

Sorry I miss Spelled Duane.Yes Paul has a BB Car.

its all good man...not a deal....:)

I skipped the Original Question.Shortly I am doing a 406.I am Using 041 Heads on it.Mainly because I have them.
Joe

I have read in one of the Chevy small block build up books (not sure it is was a book by vissard or not) that the writer of that book considers the 041 heads as a good street performance head even on motors over 400 cubes....and Jeff (on steves site I believe his screen name is StockZ28) feels that the 041 head is one of the best flowing factory heads(considering they normally only had the 1.94"/1.5" valves)

BTW has anyone ran the 041's with the larger 2.02"/1.6" valves in them? How did they work for ya?

With the price of undercut stem, tulip head, backcut valve head, swirl polished valves of that size being very inexpensive I was wondering if it would be worth it to upgrade...ya I know they are ready to run as they sit but I'm just wondering?

I believe Pauls flow info of Kev's SR heads showed a nice decent increase in flow just going to the undercut valve stems VS the standard dia valve stems....:cool:

Back to the original question. I would think that if you needed work on the 041's it would be better just to invest the money in some Vortec style heads. If the 041's are all set to go then you could run them until you upgrade.:)

BTW Chris, did you ever have your heads CC'd? I have read that the chambers on these heads tend to CC out to 67cc's instead of the advertised 64cc's...I was just wondering if you had found the same thing:)

BTW Chris, did you ever have your heads CC'd? I have read that the chambers on these heads tend to CC out to 67cc's instead of the advertised 64cc's...I was just wondering if you had found the same thing:)

I did. It was my first time trying it, I did it on only one head a few different times on each chamber. They all seemed to be coming out right around the 64cc range give or take a half. I think that was pretty accurate though. I cc'd my new RHS Vortec's and they came out just about the same.

The runners on the 041's were pretty small though. I'll have to look at my records to see what I was getting.:)

You know my car ran 12.78 with those bone stock 041X's.:thumbsup:

Well not that this means anything (as I dont have the slips) but the previous owner showed me a few timeslips for this car. With a 125hp shot of giggle gas the car ran in the neighbourhood of 11.40's @ 117-118mph or there abouts...its was nearly 20 years ago I saw them...but at the time it had a pretty big solid lifter cam in it, a Vic JR, 750 holley, and 3.73's, and a 3000+rpm convertor.....

BTW the giggle gas setup was not on the car when I bought it

I did. It was my first time trying it, I did it on only one head a few different times on each chamber. They all seemed to be coming out right around the 64cc range give or take a half. I think that was pretty accurate though. I cc'd my new RHS Vortec's and they came out just about the same.

The runners on the 041's were pretty small though. I'll have to look at my records to see what I was getting.:)

well thats cool I hope I get the same results when I CC mine...by the way I think the intake runners are supposed to be 160cc on the 041 heads and 165cc on the 041x heads...:)

well thats cool I hope I get the same results when I CC mine...by the way I think the intake runners are supposed to be 160cc on the 041 heads and 165cc on the 041x heads...:)

I'm thinking I measured them around the 155cc range though. I know they were less then I thought they'd be on the runners.

I'm thinking I measured them around the 155cc range though. I know they were less then I thought they'd be on the runners.

ummmmm...interesting....I hope I dont get simular results...oh well it will be what it will be I guess

Do you have the measuring equipment? If not I know the site where I ordered mine. It was budget but worked. I'll find it if you need it.

not yet but its on the list of items to purchase....I want to know what my CR is really not just guess at it;)

Here's where I got mine. Worked for me.

http://www.steigerperformance.com/products/sp90005.html

Duane, the pistons could handle some cutting down if the comp ratio is too high... but it'll be a fairly expensive process... i'd recommend a different head if those are the pistons ya wanna use... yeah, yer comp ratio's gonna be up there... but that's what ya originally wanted, right ??? if it's too high... chop down the pistons or get a set of bigger CC'd heads...

my heads were advertized at 64 too... but they came out a little higher... when they were all done, mine came out to 68CC's. i think if needed, a set of 76CC heads would work for ya... drop the comp ratio down in the 10.0-1 range (thereabouts) that was what i was planning on doing if i was ta use those slugs...

as fas as what ya have... i'd use the 041's instead of buying a new set of heads... use 'em untill that big Lotto ticket comes in... then you can buy us ALL a new set of heads :D

Duane, the pistons could handle some cutting down if the comp ratio is too high... but it'll be a fairly expensive process... i'd recommend a different head if those are the pistons ya wanna use... yeah, yer comp ratio's gonna be up there... but that's what ya originally wanted, right ??? if it's too high... chop down the pistons or get a set of bigger CC'd heads...

my heads were advertized at 64 too... but they came out a little higher... when they were all done, mine came out to 68CC's. i think if needed, a set of 76CC heads would work for ya... drop the comp ratio down in the 10.0-1 range (thereabouts) that was what i was planning on doing if i was ta use those slugs...

as fas as what ya have... i'd use the 041's instead of buying a new set of heads... use 'em untill that big Lotto ticket comes in... then you can buy us ALL a new set of heads :D

Johnny your right I want as high a cr as I can get it to be and still run pump gas...even if that pump gas is the sunoco 100 stuff that would be fine...but 5 buck a gallon race gas is a little tough to swallow in a car I want to drive often on the street...the 041's are very likely to be ran...in reality I'm just too cheap to spend the bucks on other heads when I have heads here that work great...well I was happy with them in the past so I dont see why that would change today......

I'm not fretting the cr just thinking out loud is all...I'm sure if I can bring it in around 11:1 or so I will be good to go...just need to run decent gas and play with the tune or cam timing...possibly if things are a little too high (as far as they dynamic CR is concerned) I can try advancing the cam or getting a cam with a later intake valve closing...that would help too...there is lots I can do....and finally if worse comes to worse...I can look at different heads....

I just cant wait to hear this motor run...and more importantly I cant wait to drive it:cool:

BTW what do you think of the idea of the upping the valve size and getting undercut stems, etc or should I just leave well enough alone ???:)

Have have seen 350's and 406's run good numbers with 041 Heads.
Mine have 2.02-1.60 Valves.

Have have seen 350's and 406's run good numbers with 041 Heads.
Mine have 2.02-1.60 Valves.

thanks Joe thats good to know:)...BTW were your heads factory 2.02 heads or did you add the larger valves...I have heard the 041's could have came that way from the factory but Jeff (stockZ28) said he has never seen anything but 1.94 in them from the factory?

my 291's came with 1.94's and 1.5's... i stayed with the 1.94's but went to the 1.625's on the exhaust... i was told that it'd help with the scavaging effect. i know when i ran these heads before... it was an amazing difference compared to what they were prior to all the port work etc...

same engine... different head work. stock vs. ported.

regardless of what's been said about these dinosaur camels... i'm keepin' mine


i'm outta here... antique drags down the block from me ;)

i'll yakk atcha later

have fun at the drags John...talk with ya later:)

69,
I got mine used.I do know the history and they were 1.94 orig.

Cool...thanks Joe...I'm a little torn between keeping the 1.94's since it is mostly a street car and 1.94's have better intake volocity than the 2.02's on the street or upping the valve size to the 2.02's to help 1/4 mile times...choices...choices...:D

You Comp. Should support 2.02 on the Street.Pick the right Cam and Carb.
My last 350 Street engine was 10:1.It had 462 heads with 2.02's.Good Throttle Response.
I would say your 1.94's would work fine also.

This is only up tp 5 Pages.We need to talk about something else.How is the Stem to Guide Clearance?Yea I think "Clearance" should get this going.

This is only up tp 5 Pages.We need to talk about something else.How is the Stem to Guide Clearance?Yea I think "Clearance" should get this going.

well they havent been pulled apart yet to clean up but I will hazard to guess they are close enough for the gurls I go out with;)

Yah know Joe, just because I want my motor to stay together reliably and want the thing to run pretty well doesn't mean you have to make a comment on it in every thread. Yah, the budget 350 thread is long, but there's a lot of good information in it.

Kev

Yah know Joe, just because I want my motor to stay together reliably and want the thing to run pretty well doesn't mean you have to make a comment on it in every thread. Yah, the budget 350 thread is long, but there's a lot of good information in it.

Kev

We need to copy that thread over to here so we can post in it while SNS is MIA.

I can't get on it to copy it... can't even ping it.

Kev

I can't get on it to copy it... can't even ping it.

Kev

the only way you could ping it right now is to know the actual IP number for the new site or to be lucky enough to have an ISP that is using an already undated name server service:)

Just got off the phone with my head porter. I'm dropping the heads off tomorrow morning for the baseline flow :)

cool......:)

so will the report be in CFM as in Cubic Feet of Manure

cool......:)

so will the report be in CFM's or cubic yards of manure

Probably CYM :D

Probably CYM :D

ya caught me while i was editing my post:D

Just got off the phone with my head porter. I'm dropping the heads off tomorrow morning for the baseline flow :)

I'm sure we don't need to remind you to post the baseline results when you get them.;) Any idea about how long until they are finished and have then flowed again? Are you gonna bolt them back on with no other changes to see how much an improvement they give you at the track? I'm just full of questions this morning.:waving:

I'm just full of questions this morning.:waving:

Ohhhh...thats what that is..:rolleyes:...and here I thought it was something else you were full of:D

I'm sure we don't need to remind you to post the baseline results when you get them.;) Any idea about how long until they are finished and have then flowed again? Are you gonna bolt them back on with no other changes to see how much an improvement they give you at the track? I'm just full of questions this morning.:waving:

Will be a week or so for completed job, but yeah, will post before and after results.

No, they ain't going back on this tired 350...I'm gonna open a can of whoopass on a wicked 383 :)

No, they ain't going back on this tired 350...I'm gonna open a can of whoopass on a wicked 383 :)

KEWL.........will it be racing again this year or are your sights set on next year?

KEWL.........will it be racing again this year or are your sights set on next year?

Yup, should be back racing in July.

Yup, should be back racing in July.

You da man!!!.....:)

Yup, should be back racing in July.

Nice..I'll be watching for updates. I think it's gonna take a different short block to honestly get to where I want to be. (My cast crank has to have 175k miles and 100 runs on it). I been doing some thinking on the subject.:thumbsup:

Nice..I'll be watching for updates. I think it's gonna take a different short block to honestly get to where I want to be. (My cast crank has to have 175k miles and 100 runs on it). I been doing some thinking on the subject.:thumbsup:

wadda ya spin it to with that crank in there?

wadda ya spin it to with that crank in there?

I shift @ 6000 with a stock 2-bolt bottom-end. I don't think the GM cast stuff gets enough credit, but I'm done with it.

wadda ya spin it to with that crank in there?

I use to keep it at 5500, but with the new heads I have been stretching it to 6k. I think it's living on borrowed time. :sad: I believe it had around 125k when it was reground back in the late 80's.

I use to keep it at 5500, but with the new heads I have been stretching it to 6k. I think it's living on borrowed time. :sad: I believe it had around 125k when it was reground back in the late 80's.

Borrowed time?!?! Yer butt would pucker watching me run this 2-bolt :clonk:

i lost the lower end on my old 327 at about 7800. broke the center main outta the block and cracked the crank... didn't grenade it... but definitely broke it.

it sure was Fun though !!!!

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y258/64Flyer/CostlyFun2.jpg

Borrowed time?!?! Yer butt would pucker watching me run this 2-bolt :clonk:

He..He...:D

Mine is a two bolt also. The four bolt is sitting on the stand. It's probably fine, but I have been know to be a worrier.:clonk:

Dave is that a crate short block you're getting? Or are you building it? What kinda goodies are going into it?

Super-Secret Secret-Squirrel parts


of course !!!!! :D :D :D

Yah know Joe, just because I want my motor to stay together reliably and want the thing to run pretty well doesn't mean you have to make a comment on it in every thread. Yah, the budget 350 thread is long, but there's a lot of good information in it.

Kev

Kev,
That did not Sound like a Joke?You dont think My engines Stay Together? I need NO Help Building one.
Joe

He..He...:D

Mine is a two bolt also. The four bolt is sitting on the stand. It's probably fine, but I have been know to be a worrier.:clonk:

What cam are ya running???....heck if you have a 4 bolt on the stand spin your two bolt until it crys for its Momma or pukes its guts out on the track...either way it will be a blast...:cool:

What cam are ya running???....heck if you have a 4 bolt on the stand spin your two bolt until it crys for its Momma or pukes its guts out on the track...either way it will be a blast...:cool:

Comp XE274H. I have thought about it. It would suck if it puked a piston into the new heads though. I still have a few more things to do to this motor over the next month in my quest for the 11's. At 11.49 they will tell me to get a cage before I come back. I just wanna get it solidly into the 11's, I will decide what route to go in the next few weeks or sooner.:thumbsup:

I shift @ 6000 with a stock 2-bolt bottom-end. I don't think the GM cast stuff gets enough credit, but I'm done with it.

Hey man it will hold together until it doesnt...lol....with my forged crank and 4 bolt mains I've seen 6800+ a few times...not on a track mind you:o ...hey its ok I was just passing someone on the highway:rolleyes:....the PO had it higher on several occasions at the track with seemingly no ill effects....though when I had it apart the first time I found several pistons with cracked or broken pistons skirts...not sure of the cause...NOS use by PO, too much piston to cylinder clearance, other???? I dunno all I can sy is the pistons were forged and the skirts on most of them were fubared...a few fell off in my hand when the pistons came out of the cylinder...Oh well its all fun and games until someone loses an eye...then its a sport:D

I know how that piston crumbling goes lol....

Kev

I know how that piston crumbling goes lol....

Kev
Yep I suspect you do;)

I'm leaning towards too much piston to cylinder clearance but really I cannot say...the motor has been bored and rebuilt since then so there is nothing to measure anymore...welllll I do have a piston missing one skirt I kept as a reminder of how lucky I was the skirts didnt drop off in the motor and jamb it up...:eek:.....