As I was reading the post about the Auto Parts Stores this little story came to mind. This is a true story and it happened recently like within the past 4-5 weeks. Well I recently got this 1971 Nova and was pulling the 355 out of it to put in a 383 that I got from a friend. Well the 383 had a flexplate because it was running a T400 and my Nova had a 10.4" flywheel neutral balanced for the small bellhousing on the 350, (probably the original bellhousing from the 250 6cyl). Anyway, I was having a terrible time finding an externally balanced flywheel from a 400 engine, because they were all the large 14" flywheel's for 11" clutches and mine was the smaller 12.75" for the 10.4" clutch. Well after several days of stopping by there and looking at different part numbers etc. the guy at Oreilly's (bless his heart) was trying desperately to help me figure out something on this. Well he offered to look around on the internet some and help me research this issue and I gave him my phone number so he could call me if he found anything. Well a couple of days later I am laying in bed with my wife sound asleep when all of the sudden at 1:30 a.m., yes that's 1:30 in the morning the telephone rings. Scares the **** out of my wife and she picks up the phone and with the most god awful look you could imagine :mad: she hands me the phone and tells me it's the guy at Oreilly's..........:confused: I couldn't believe it and I talked to him for a second half asleep and told him "Dude, do you know what time it is?" He kind of stopped for a second, and then I hung up the phone. He didn't call back thank goodness, but I mean the wife was furious. I couldn't help it but to laugh my a** off as it was so ridiculous I thought it was hilarious. I don't know what my wife got more mad at, the fact that they guy woke us up in the middle of the night or the fact that I was laughing my a** off about it.........:yes: I don't think the guy had any idea what time it was. I think he was just at home and decided he would look on the internet and see what he could figure out, so here's this guy trying to help me out, and when he actually thought he found something he got excited and had to call me right away. The next time I saw him at the store, I couldn't resist but to ask him "So, have you called anybody else up lately at 1:30 in the a.m.?" and gave him a grin.........:p But I have to admit, that is dedication to solving a problem!!!! Oh and by the way, they don't make a small flywheel for the 400 they all had the larger flywheels with the larger bellhousing, so what I ended up having to do was to take my 350 flywheel and have it balanced to match the 400 flexplate and that worked. Then I had my 350 flywheel set up for the 383 and could not use it again when I put my 355 back in the car and bought one of those steel flywheels off ebay that are way thinner than a stock cast one and had to have it machined down so the flywheel bolts don't hit the clutch and now we're back in business. :thumbsup:

there's quite a few 153 tooth externally balanced flywheels...

http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntt=flywheel&N=700+4294908216+4294840135+4294862434+115+4294864 843&Ntk=KeywordSearch


i did like the story ;)

Yes but they were all for 11 inch clutch 14" diameters. I have the small bell housing that will only take the smaller 12.75" flywheel for the 10.4 " clutch. At least that's what I recall when I was searching for them. I see there does seem to be one there in summit that appears to be for the smaller one but I also did not have $300+ to spend on one. I was looking for a stock one from the auto parts store but I don't believe they made a small one for the 400 stock. The ones from summit is what the aftermarket has provided for the 383's but man are they steep! Whew!:(

The SBC 400 never shipped with a manual transmission. The flywheel you are talking about was a service part only. It was designed to put the SBC 400 into medium trucks as a service replacement for tired 327 and 350 small blocks. You have to be very careful about an externally balanced 11" clutch flywheel as it is statistically most likely going to be for a 454. They are not interchangeable; the weights are different both in mass and location between the SBC and the BBC. You can buy new 14" SBC 400 flywheels from Schaefer, Hays, Centerforce, McLeod, and most other clutch and flywheel companies.

Big Dave

well... it's not the diameter, it's the tooth count, right???

Chevy's use two flywheels, a 153 and a 168 tooth count. what you needed/need is the 153 count (small flywheel)

the listing showed three different externally balanced 153 count flywheels. :thumbsup:

it all doesn't matter now anyways as you stated you already have the e bay flywheel that had to be machined to work. i know about those as i have one myself and it's sitting oon a shelf in my shop... it'll never get used.

JR

well... it's not the diameter, it's the tooth count, right???

Chevy's use two flywheels, a 153 and a 168 tooth count. what you needed/need is the 153 count (small flywheel)

the listing showed three different externally balanced 153 count flywheels. :thumbsup:

it all doesn't matter now anyways as you stated you already have the e bay flywheel that had to be machined to work. i know about those as i have one myself and it's sitting oon a shelf in my shop... it'll never get used.

JR

Well actually Chevy made three fly wheel sizes but the biggest is only for trucks even though the bell housing and fly wheel will bolt up to a any Chevy motor (who wants to be behind a semi with an "Iron Duke" trying to move it). I was trying to offer a word of caution with regard to not all 168 tooth flywheels bolt up to a SBC 400; GM made a grand total of one. The rest of the 168 tooth flywheels that are externally balanced fit either a 454 or a 502 (yes they are balanced differently so one size doesn't fit all).

Big Dave

Well I don't know if the SBC 400 never shipped with a manual transmission but the parts houses are showing it with a manual transmission option in a 74 Laguna??? And El Camino also. Anyway I found a work around for my problem. John, how come you won't use the steel flywheel from e-bay? I understand it is not a McCleod or a Hays or Centerforce or anything but it is a Billet Steel which in my mind is still stronger than a stock cast flywheel? Little by little I am upgrading my drive line to be able to handle some more ponies and I have every intention of getting a better quality flywheel and clutch setup down the road. I had to mill the flywheel mounting bolt holes down to a little more than the thickness of a flexplate and then had to use flexplate bolts instead of flywheel bolts to keep from hitting the block, but after doing that and using the Long Throwout bearing it seems to be working fine. Yeah, I know, it's made in China and it was from a company called CAT out of SoCal that imports stuff from China but it actually looked pretty decent other than the fact that they do make them with far less material than a higher quality one like McCleod or Hays etc. and probably why they are so cheap. But hey when you're on a very tight budget (and having been out of work for nearly 3 months, Start new job Monday YEAH!) and you can't stand having your car sit in the garage I took the cheap way. I'm not taking it to the race track like that but for street driving around it's ok. If there's other reasons for not using one of these then I need to be educated.....................:yes:

Also I know that sounds really shakey about milling a flywheel down to a little more than a flex plate but it was actually about .030" thicker than my SFI ATF flexplate and it's only right around the mounting holes the remainder of the center around the bolts stayed at nominal thickness. And I thought about that for a bit and if a steel flexplate can handle the torque and stresses of slinging around a heavy torque converter full of ATF I figured the thickness of the mounting points on the flywheel would still be more than adequate to handle the stresses of a much lighter pressure plate and clutch. I may be wrong, but I think you can see my line of thinking here anyway.

I gotcha Dave, I understand that the 454 and the 400 balance moments are different and you can't use a 454 flywheel/flexplate in a 400/383/406 and whatever else you can make out of the 400. Don't ya just love these little debates? LOL Hey I'm learning stuff every day! I've been tinkering with cars my whole life but I can see you guys are really CAR GUYS!!! I'm impressed you guys pretty much know your stuff. By the way, what is a product I can add to my oil to get some ZDDP back into my system. I'm running Catrol GTX 20/50 (probably a little heavy but it's never given me any problems) but if it needs that ZDDP to allow my flat tappet cam to live until I can upgrade to a roller setup what do I need to get? I know this isn't the right forum for this but since it popped into my head well...........I looked at autozone last night at all the Lucas additives and everthing else they had and I could not find anything that said anything about adding zinc/phosphate, zddp or anything. I want to get something in there before my cam starts to take a nose dive.

well Dale, if i read your post correctly you answered the question already... using that E bay flywheel the clutch disc hits the flywheel to crank bolts. it's not marked on all the e bay ads but it's designed for a non sprung clutch disc... racing only. you need the springs in the clutch disc for street use and i personally didn't feel comfortable machining the flywheel to clear the bolt heads... so i bought a Hays unit for my 377. the e bay sfi flywheel is in my shop (internally balanced) and it'll rot there. i couldn't in my right mind sell it to anyone as i know exactly what would happen. they'd be in the same fix i was in and i don't like to mislead or screw people so it'll never be resold.

i've been told i over think things and over complicate things... maybe that's true but i saw nothing but future bad things by machining the flywheel. you make the hub area thinner to clear the springs and in my opinion you're only weaking it. OK now you have to have shorter bolts too... i see nothing but extra work, extra BS down the road so i bit the bullet and got what was really needed... the correct flywheel.


a side note. as the flywheel's face is thinner than stock that changes the distance from flywheel face to the bellhousing stud also... that means clutch adjustment is off. the fork need to point forward approx 5* and you need .030 clearance from disc to flywheel on adjustment (clutch applied) if the stud is too short (trust me it WILL be too short) then an adjustable one is needed... well you can get an adjustable one from Summit, Mr.Gasket, Lakewood etc but they all by specification only cover the length of the factory GM unit... so that means instead of buying that 15 dollar stud you have to cough up 50 bucks for the extra long one from McLeod.

which i had to do anyways. i have a scattershield with a block plate. the plate moves the bellhousing away from the block (say longer stud) then i found the Hays flywheel is .100 thinner than a factory flywheel (say stud issues again ???) so in the end i had to do extra work anyways to get the proper stud installed and adjust my clutch.

a long post i hope some of this makes sense...

just tryin' ta help someone avoid the issues i've already faced ;)

JR

It was sooooo much easier just running an automatic transmission.......:sad:, I like having a 4 speed car and all but geez this manual tranny stuff can be a real pita. Hey wait a minute, Don't you guys have regular jobs!!! LOL I'm the one who's out of work here!!! HAHA!! That's what I love REAL TIME POSTS!!! Got to run guys! Type to ya later! ;)

what the heck is a "Regular Job ???

i'm retarded... I MEAN RETIRED... RETIRED !!! :eek: :D :D :D

Me too! (retired that is). I used to be an engineer, but now all I do is sit around all day and answer questions. Though come to think about it that is all I ever did when I worked as an engineer, with a little drawing thrown in.

Two problems come to mind when you mill a flywheel too thin. The material that resists the deformation of the flat surface from the force applied to the six bolts holding the pressure plate to the wheel is removed. this causes the wheel to dish reducing the contact patch for the clutch disc. As the contact patch is reduced the heat generated per square inch goes up rapidly, and because the material is lighter it can not absorb as much heat without warping which reduces the contact patch of the clutch, which expedites the early demise of your freshly machined surface.

As Johnny pointed out the dimensions are critical, the mass is not as important which is why there are several weights of steel plates and even a few choices of light weight aluminum wheels to choose from. All have the identical exterior dimensions on the clutch disk side (all differences in weight are on the crankshaft side of the wheel). A warped heat checked wheel spinning at high RPM is an accident waiting to happen. I hope if you do use that wheel you have a nice thick puke can to hold everything inside.

Big Dave

Me too! (retired that is). I used to be an engineer, but now all I do is sit around all day and answer questions. Though come to think about it that is all I ever did when I worked as an engineer, with a little drawing thrown in.

Big Dave

How about tossing in a little drawing once in awhile, it wil be just like working again :D

Oh No!!! Don't get him started Phillip!!! Oh boy here we go................LOL!:noway:

Let Me reinforce what Big Dave and Johnny are saying.I'm not an engineer, but I can speak from experience. I know you are on a budget, but some things you don't skimp on and that is your clutch. After having a clutch blow up on me, I will never drive a stick car again with out buying an after market clutch, flywheel that is balanced and built to take high RPM, and a scatter shield. I was lucky to be able to walk away, but my car wasn't. It blew the floor board out, cut the frame in two, cut the brake line and emergency brake line in two. The muncie was bouncing on the ground. The flywheel, pressure plate, disk and bellhousing were all in little pieces. The largest piece would Fit in the palm of my hand. Belive me I was very lucky to walk away with just minor cuts and bruises.

scary stuff

Dale you can use Crane Cams break in additive or Gm EOS to add ZDDP to the oil. It would be easier just to buy some off road racing oil. Search for posts using ZDDP and the user name VENO. You will find a wealth of info on oils.

I'll make it easy for you.

Here are some links to his threads
http://www.novas.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3655&highlight=zddp

http://www.novas.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3125&highlight=zddp

Point taken Randy. I hear ya.

Excellent reading there. I think I will go for the Rotella T as I think they sell that right here at our local Wal-Mart and Atwoods. Thanks for the good info!

One thing that is not covered and you should know. The diesel formulations are not the best for gas engines even though the ZDDP is high. They contain large amounts of detergents that are not needed in gas engines and tend to wash away the zinc and phosporus coatings. Great for start up break in oils but IMO not for daily use.

No problem. I'll just stick with the Rotella T. I won't mess around with the diesel oils. Sounds like the Shell Oil or the Lucas oil are just fine the way they are for both break in and daily use, of course it probably would hurt to put a little extra in during break in like you suggested maybe the crane cams break in lube or the GM EOS although the ZDDP sounds like it's supposed to be better than the EOS. I'd have to find a source for both of them anyway, the auto parts guys don't carry much aftermarket around here. Thanks again for the help.

Rotella T is a diesel truck oil API rated at CJ-4/SM (C is for compression and J is as high as you can get from A where they started the rating system; Same for S which is for spark and that scale also started at A, so M is better) and also has an international rating of Global DHD-1 (to keep Mercedes Benz happy).

It is a low ash, low paraffin, mineral based oil with all sulfur removed, and has as noted a lot of detergents (not really soap, but added chemicals designed to clean up the cylinder walls of diesel trucks and to buffer the chemicals which are the by products of diesel oil combustion, not gasoline. Rotella T has more DZZP than modern synthetic motor oils but not enough to keep a flat tappet cam alive. You would still need to run a can of GM-EOS at every oil change (they still sell it in Canada, just not in the US anymore because of liability built into the EPA enforcement).

DOH! I guess it will be the Valvoline VR1 then. Didn't realize the Rotella T WAS the diesel oil and that's why Phillip was advising me to stay away from that. Thanks for clearing that up for me! How about the synthetics? Will they protect a flat tappet cam? I thought I saw Mobil 1 on one of those lists and maybe Castrol Syntec?

All modern motor oils sold to the public for use with cars equipped with catalytic converters (everything made after 1975) has been stripped of ZDDP because it caused the catalytic converter to fail (catalytic action is contaminated by the metals in the oil which get burnt when it gets past the rings).

Every internal combustion engine sold in the United states (that includes lawn mowers) must now have a catalytic converter. There is no more oil available, anywhere, from any source, for flat tappets: except for racing oil marked on the label as being "for off road use only; Illegal to use in any car equipped with emissions control devices". I would not bet the farm that even racing oil will be around much longer either. With that in mind I can say: That is it! It will not get any better, and even the cam companies have only one page of flat tappet cams now in their new catalogs.

Flat tappets are gone, done, finito, put a fork in it. You are going to have to buy roller tappets whether you want to or not. They have, or are in the process now, of removing flat tappets as an option.

Big Dave

They need to get a whole lot more reasonable on the pricing then because them babies ain't exactly chump change. I don't understand why they are so darn high priced and the cams too. I doubt it costs them any more to manufacture a roller cam from a billet stock of steel than it does to mill a flat tappet camshaft and I think the roller lifters should cost under $200 as well. Make it reasonable and I WILL COME! HAHA! That or I may just buy used. A local guy here has a set of Herberts roller lifters he's selling for $125 and I'm thinking about it............................The cam too but it's way more than what I'd want. I was just looking at Comps XR280R today. I like those numbers.

You can buy a 305 Chevy motor for scrap metal prices and every one made since 1986 has hydraulic roller lifters in it. They are not made of unobtainium. You will need a one piece rear main seal 350 block to use them with. But now you have a hydraulic roller cam and all of the associated parts to begin playing with.

Big dave

May I add one more over looked detail on flywheels. (at least by me once ) I stuffed a 421 Super Duty Pontiac with a 4-speed into a tri-five chevrolet.. This 421 had jahns pistons, mickey thompson rods, crane roller. torque out the yee-yang. I sheard the flywheel to crankshaft bolts clean off power shifting from 2nd. to 3rd. Bellhousing exploded, hurst shifter with a T-handle dropped out of my hand and through the hole in the floor. Transmission fell out onto the street and the car hopped over it bending the transmission tail shaft like a horseshoe.. Car almost rolled over and of coarse I was killed... GGG.. USE THE BEST BOLTS YOU CAN BUY.. just joking about the killed part but done a ton of damage underneath that tri-five...:thumbsup: